October 9, 2004

Was there SIN in the Garden?

Ignoring for the moment the tautology; “disobedience = sin.” Let us consider if Eve or Adam sinned when they ate the “apple.”

The question is; "is it possible to sin, without the knowledge of Good and Evil?” I propose that it is not. And therefore while Eve, and then Adam, disobeyed God… they did not sin. At least not until AFTER “The Fall”

Obviously you ask; “is not disobedience itself, a sin?” Consider a small child that is told by the parent; “Do not touch the stove” is it inherently wrong (and therefore a sin) to touch the stove? Of course not, people touch that stove daily.

Does God not give us direction, guidance for our lives, that when ignored, is not inherently wrong (sinful) but is only wrong in our disobedience? An example; a young man is called by God to attend seminary, to become a Pastor; instead he goes to a secular college and becomes a lawyer. Is it a sin to become a lawyer? (some would say “YES” I’m sure
) Is it a SIN not to attend seminary? Not at all. Most people do not attend seminary, and I’m sure there’s a righteous lawyer, or two, out there somewhere.

SO? Why do I draw this line between disobedience and sin? I draw this line because I believe it is CRUCIAL to our understanding our relationship to God, under Grace. Any Bible student realizes that Jesus went to the Cross so that when you and I, believers, stand before the ultimate judgment, and the Books are opened that our names will be found to be written in The Lamb’s Book of Life,. And we will be found to be sanctified, to be innocent, by the blood of Jesus.

If this be the case, does Sin matter? As Paul says “should we just continue in Sin, that Grace may abound?” Paul’s answer is “no,” for the fundamental reason that sin is wrong, it harms us, it screws up our lives. This of course is true.

But if we are not compelled, coerced by the threat of ultimate punishment, why do we not sin? What guides our life? Jesus answered this very specifically, and his answer was “obedience” Jesus said that if you Love Him, you will obey Him.*

The nation of Israel was given a choice; Follow the Law that God gave to Moses, and be blessed; or rebel and be cursed. The fundamental carrot and stick of God. In the Old Testament we see this played out, on a personal, individual, level and on a national level.

And I believe many of us still seek that simplicity. We want to see the bad punished and the good rewarded. But is this what Jesus taught? Or did he teach that to follow Him might well bring PAIN, even martyrdom? Did Jesus teach that God causes the rain to fall on both the just AND the unjust? Did Jesus say to let the weeds grow with the wheat and it will all be sorted out at the final reckoning?

You see, I think there is a beautiful symmetry in God’s plan that we have all missed.
God originally created a World in which there was no sin, no hate, no crime, and no fear. God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply to have dominion over God’s creation, and he placed only very minor limits on them. All they needed to do was obey.

Adam chose to disobey. Adam’s choice made sin possible and society as we see it today is the result of that decision. Wars, greed, hate, crime... all the result, the outcome, of Adam’s disobedience.

But what of Christ? Paul calls Jesus the “last Adam.” Jesus offered himself on the cross, a blood sacrifice for our sin, payment. Jesus’ obedience at Calvary overturned the disobedience of Adam in the garden. By Adam’s disobedience sin came in (because Adam obtained the knowledge of Good and Evil), by the sacrifice of Jesus that very sin was PAID FOR! We no longer must deal with Sin. Even tho we know the difference between right and wrong, and choose the wrong on occasion; the issue today for the believer is once again simple obedience.

Do you see the symmetry in this?

  • God created mankind, and asked only for obedience
  • Adam rejected obedience and chose a life of law and punishment, good and evil, sin and righteousness.
  • Jesus took away the OUTCOME of sin, the punishment (death) and restored man to his original relationship in the garden, a relationship of obedience

Do you doubt this symmetry? Then read what Jesus taught at the very end of his ministry: “If a man loves me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (John 14:23)

Is this not the very relationship Adam had with God, in the garden?


~peace~

15 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thank you for this. Gives me much to think about. For example,

If I'm disobedient / sinful now, I am forgiven? Just like that? What does it mean to repent? My church wants us to promise to "sin no more" but that's impossible, so what good is the promise?

What about otherwise good Christians who live in sin or lie casually (though not about important stuff) or who countenance sin around them? If it's not just a one-time thing, but a pattern of disobedience, are they still forgiven? Or not until they stop?

If it's so easy to be forgiven, will we ever have incentive to stop?

Did the fallen angels sin, or were they merely disobedient? When we get in heaven, do we still have free will? Can we sin or be disobedient there? Can anyone, angel or human, see the face of God and sin or be disobedient? Can we be tossed out of heaven for disobedience?

So many questions go through my mind. I'm not expecting all the answers until I die, but you sure have stirred things up!

Pastor Mark said...

These are my answers to your questions….

Q: If I'm disobedient/sinful now, I am forgiven?
A: Jesus died for your sins even BEFORE you believed

Q: Just like that?
A: yep

Q: What does it mean to repent?
A: To make a decision to stop sinning.. to reverse your direction

Q: My church wants us to promise to "sin no more" but that's impossible, so what good is the promise?
A: Go ask your Church (I can’t speak for them)

Q: What about otherwise good Christians who live in sin or lie?
A: Salvation is salvation

Q: If it's a pattern of disobedience, are they still forgiven? Or not until they stop?
A: Salvation is a free, UNDESERVED gift from God

Q: If it's so easy to be forgiven, will we ever have incentive to stop?
A: Read Romans (esp chapter 6)

Q: Did the fallen angels sin, or were they merely disobedient?
A: Not sure, tho I think the term "Rebellion" applies

Q: When we get in heaven, do we still have free will?
A: I assume so

Q: Can we sin or be disobedient there?
A: apparently

Q: Can anyone, angel or human, see the face of God and sin or be disobedient?
A: apparently

Q: Can we be tossed out of heaven for disobedience?
A: Satan was

-BUT-

You need to search the Scriptures for yourself and learn JESUS’ answers

(Watch for an up-coming post on Bible Study and a standard for determining sound doctrine)

Anonymous said...

I rather hoped you'd say that Satan and his followers must have rebelled and been tossed out of heaven before seeing the face of God. For what faith is there if there is no doubt? And if one has seen the face of God, could there be any doubt? Any rebellion?

But, then I suppose we can't know this, as I don't think Scripture is clear on when the rebellion happened. I worry about being stubborn and disobedient in heaven, but hope that seeing the Glory of God will end that and I won't get tossed out!

Thanks for pointing me to Romans 6. I read ahead to Romans 7 and see where I fit in:

22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

This is where I struggle. How do I know if I have truly accepted Jesus as Messiah and Savior, as I believe I have, if I still sin, as we all do? So very confusing.

You are so kind to take the time to answer my questions. God bless you and your work.

Pastor Mark said...

Read the first few verses of the story of Job...
Satan interacted with God, clearly after he fell, and apparently face-to-face

Pastor Mark said...

Was Paul sure of his OWN salvation? Even tho he was conflicted concerning his carnal(sin) nature? If not, why did he write in Phillipians: "For to me to live is Christ, and TO DIE IS GAIN." ??

Anonymous said...

Ah, after he fell. Yes. Too late, after choosing the wrong side. But, did Satan fall before or after he first saw the face of God?

As to Paul, I don't understand. Will have to read more.

Thank you, again.

Pastor Mark said...

Well, I think satan was an archangel, much like Michael or Gabriel, so it' probably safe to assume that he saw God's face often.

However, the issue I raised in my original posting is our relationship to God, in the here and now... Jeusus taught our realtionship with God, our love of God, is shown by our obedience.

Anonymous said...

Sorry about going off topic.

"Even tho we know the difference between right and wrong, and choose the wrong on occasion; the issue today for the believer is once again simple obedience." So, what do we obey? The Law? But you said the Law was for before Jesus' cross. If the law, what is the difference between obeying the 10 commandments, lest we be disobedient, vs. obeying the 10 commandments, lest we be sinful? Urk! It makes my brain hurt. Is the only difference that the sin is paid for? Do we also have to pay for disobedience?

Actually, one of my personal NOT favorites is, as you said, "God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply" So, if I'm afraid to multiply and don't, is this sin / disobedience and a deal breaker? Or am I already forgiven, even if I persist in this sin / disobedience? Again my brain hurts.

Pastor Mark said...

Aaaaah, My friend… NOW you have posed the key question…
You are asking the difference between Law (before the Cross) and Grace.

Israel was told to obey the law “or else” Blessings Vs Curses.

“Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God…” Deuteronomy 11:26-28

Jesus taught us to Love God, (because He first loved us!) and BECAUSE we love God we obey. Jesus took away the curse. Jesus took the Curse of the Law upon himself. (read John 14)

What to obey? “He that has MY COMMANDMENTS, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” John 14:21

“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” 1st John 5:3

So, study the teachings (doctrine) of Jesus. Get yourself a red-letter Bible, open it up to the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John) and study what Jesus personally taught (the letters in red). Whatever you learn there, as you read and understand, apply that to your life. It’s really that simple. If you fail (as you will) God’s Grace is sufficient for you. The forgiveness bought by the Blood of Jesus at the Cross pays the price for your sin, for your failings.

Anonymous said...

I've been thinking about getting a new Bible. I'll keep the "red letter" option in mind. (I also like to use Bible Gateway when I have a question while on-line.)

Thanks for taking so much time with me. I guess I need to do some reading now. :-)

Anonymous said...

No new blogs, Pastor Mark? Do you need topics? How about: (1) "I'm personally against abortion but would never impose my beliefs on another." (2) Why in Genesis 2, verse 24 does it say "a man will leave his father and mother" when Adam and Eve had no parents? (3) "Well, JESUS never mentioned homosexuality, so He isn't against it. God made them that way and He'd want them to be happy and love one another."

I'm sure I could think up more, if you'd like! (Note, I do not agree with 1 and 3, but have heard similar from "Christians.")

Pastor Mark said...

It sounds to me like you have a nice list of topics for your own Blog there... GO FOR IT, Friend! :-)

Anonymous said...

I've only got questions, not answers.

Pastor Mark said...

Well, my anonymous friend...
In THAT case I've started a BLOG just for you, and others with questions: "Q&A" http://pastormark.blogspot.com/2004/10/q.html

Anonymous said...

Mark, why are you always so mean to people that clearly need your help and guidance on IRC?

You don't know what it would have meant to me if you'd just reached out your hand.....





Are You Being Abused?


There IS a way to escape...